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Hawkes Bay is well known for its wineries, orchards and Art Deco. The area is foremost a tourist destination and the Hawkes Bay Councils seem to perpetuate this.
For the rest there is hardly the social buzzing of energy that you can find in the larger cities of New Zealand and abroad. The area works with the seasons. In winter the people are in hibernation waiting for the next spring to come along for the whole tourist and fruit season to start over again.
That is why many young and talented people move out of the area.
Do we want to change this?
11:30, 22.09.2012
Most certainly we do. It’s a massive issue, and one that I think isn’t fully understood… Especially by the older generations. The workforce is getting older and older in the bay, what’s going to happen when the majority of the population the bay bay becomes over 65… Who is going to be working and in the jobs? No one… All of a sudden people can’t retire at 65… They have to keep working because there is no younger generations to keep Hawkes Bay moving.
But there is hope. There are a few groups around the bay that realise this and are working to remedy it. But it’s not a fast process and any help is greatly appreciated. One of the groups being the Hawkes Bay Young Professionals http://hbyp.co.nz/, and the other being the Youth Futures project. There is promising stuff happening… It just takes time to grow.
18:05, 22.09.2012
I would love to return to my beautiful home, Hawke’s Bay, but I just don’t know what I could do with myself! The reason I left was not because of the hibernation (growing up there, I am now very used to the cycle) but because I simply couldn’t find the right professional position. After returning from the obligatory OE I moved through five positions in two and half years that were all either unchallenging, unrewarding and/or under paid. I have a degree, postgraduate diploma, half a decade of professional experience but, as a representative from Red Consulting explained, I’m not yet management material but too experienced for junior roles. So where do I fit? Brisbane, that’s where! I now have a fantastic role in local government, earning $20,000 more than my last position in Hawke’s Bay, with a company vehicle, filling it with $1.30/litre fuel (paid for by the company) and getting fat on NZ cheese that doesn’t cost the earth!
But I still just want to come home
20:05, 22.09.2012
@ Dan.
I think it is not the fact that this is not fully understood by the older generation, but more a “not my issue any more” attitude. And don’t get me wrong, it is fully understandable that after 40 years in the workforce that you just want to enjoy your time on earth a bit. I’d do the same!
Unfortunately however all the resources are locked into this generation. Even if the younger generation had the stamina to swim upstream against the status quo, they’d have no resources to turn projects into reality.
I have been to the Young Professionals group a long time ago, but more than talk wasn’t quite eventuating. I haven’t heard from the Young Futures group. All I can find on the web is a UK movement.
@Jodine.
It is sad to hear that even though you are keen to come back and live in the Bay, there is no opportunity for you to fit in and be challenged here.
If there would be that opportunity, I am sure that even if all the perks of the company car, the fat cheese etc were not to materialise, you’d still be happy to come back if there was a suitable role here for you.
I myself have only lived here for 7 years or so, but I find it really hard to make a change here or to build something up. I can’t quite escape the feeling that people want to put you in a container with a lid on it, just to make sure you don’t make any ripples as it might change the status quo they have come to depend on.
Of course, there are exceptions, but they are far and wide.
Perhaps we should start defining who those people are that have influence and resources that actually care about the future of Hawkes Bay. Then setup some targets or goals we’d like to achieve for the younger talented people and see what we can do?
20:51, 22.09.2012
40 years in the workforce and you still made the cut for the HBYP group – how HTF does that work??
Dan Browne made it quite clear to me that at nearly 40 I DID NOT make the cut. And fair enough too!
Building resource in the Bay – or a ‘bank’ of people who want to come back to the Bay is really bloody important to our economy.
In my experience the people who have grown up here/went to school here, tend to want to come back.
I have often talked about the “Hawke’s Bay effect” – which is this crazy thing that if you have spent time growing up here, you always ALWAYS want to come back.
The great thing about that is – HB tends to produce smart people – that do really smart things out of town, so if/when they come back- everyone benefits.
The bummer is that they think that their ‘smarts’ will be underutilized in the Bay. However, the reality is that you can demonstrate your ‘smarts’ wherever you live.
So if you want to be the Bay you have two options:
a) work for a great HB company that already exists
b) strap some on and build your own business. This clearly isn’t for everyone. But it is possible, and you can do it
HB can rock- we all just have to make it an attractive career choice.
So think about that people.
Cheers,
G
21:05, 22.09.2012
@george.
You misread my comment I think.
I myself have not been in the workforce for 40 years..
Yes indeed. I think that everyone here can confirm that the ‘HB effect’ is real.
Jodine can testify for that.
Not sure though that she’d agree with you that you can show your smarts wherever you live. Obviously she is convinced she couldn’t as she’s across the ditch now.
Your option A doesn’t always apply I think. There is only so much space in those companies.
Option B sounds like a very attractive choice, but needs a lot of resources up front. Generally young people don’t have that. They need to fall back on people that have. The older generation.
So perhaps some kind of Incubator would work for the young folk with big ideas?? They have have been setup in the larger cities of this fair country and also overseas, so there must be some merit in them?
Maybe then we can trap people that would otherwise have left? And perhaps even attract people that have left but want to come back. Like Jodine?
21:14, 22.09.2012
This is a subject close to my heart Paul as Hawke’s Bay is feeling the ‘hourglass’ effect of a heavy load of 50+ and under 20′s while international cities attract the core demographics to a stage where they can learn and prove their worth. This isn’t a unique problem to Hawke’s Bay but it is more pronounced. I’ve done my international city time and after 9 years in London have well and truly earned my experience badge.
What I would say is that in a business environment, young people have natural competitive advantages that naturally go with youth. We’ve got more time (no kids), more energy, more to prove and more naivety so often think without boundaries. All good traits for an economy and a person.
However, I don’t think there’s an age issue at play here in Hawke’s Bay. It’s more insidious than that. It’s undiscussed. I like to label it “incumbent thinking” that favours the “as is”. You know the people. The ones that poo poo your idea when what they’re really postulating “hey, we like what we do ‘as is’ and don’t want to risk changing it”. I’ve met 40 year olds lumbering this and I’ve met 75 year olds that continue to ask the positive, aspirational ‘what if’ questions. Whenever I encounter incumbent ‘as is’ thinking, I get excited. They don’t want to open their minds to grasp the opportunity. That means the opportunity is there for the taking. In Hawke’s Bay, there ain’t a lot of the “let’s just make it happen together” people so the stage really is all yours. As Gandhi, said, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
I’d add that if you’ve got the drive, then youth is on your side. You have less to lose, more to gain, and arguably more hunger and drive to prove your worth. Whatever happens, don’t look to the incumbent thinkers to help you get ahead. Surround yourself with a network of like minded people that wants progress, that wants to push things forward. HBYP is one of those groups, the twitter community is another, Better Hawke’s Bay is a third (Napier City Council is not). People like you are around and when I meet one, I love to hear about their aspirations… share your passion. We are stronger together.
I didn’t stand again for the Hawke’s Bay Chamber of Commerce Board because I felt under-utilised. Kinda the token young guy. As amazing a job as the Chamber has done in advocacy over recent years, the let’s keep things ‘as is’ had infiltrated there too. I didn’t stand again because I couldn’t point to one initiative I had directly impacted in a positive way (yes I know what you’re thinking). I hope the new young guy on the board, Dan Browne doesn’t suffer the same fate. The learning point for me was to surround myself with like minded souls and shun the non-believers.
So what should you be asking yourself if you’re assessing an opportunity you’re passionate about. Six questions:
What do you want?
What are you worried might happen?
What resources do you have?
What’s stopping you?
What positive experiences can you draw on?
What negative experiences might be holding you back?
Oh, and I do coffee chats every Friday at Raffles Cafe if you fancy chewing the fat over a cup of coffee.
PS Good subject to raise Paul. It’s good to see an article on fruitbowl that’s not an EIT article.
22:26, 22.09.2012
LOL phew Paul bc that would make you ancient
But I just don’t agree you need massive resource to do your own thing – you just need to be smart about what you do with it.
Matt and I came with a minimal amount of equity, but our circumstances forced us to ‘do’ something for ourselves. So we worked bloody hard to make something of it.
Of course the other option for people returning to HB is to find work with an existing company.
These are the realities of living in the Bay – unless you’ve worked as hard a Rod Drury to now deserve the ‘HB lifestyle’ he has.
We haven’t been DINKY’s since we lived in London, so knew we just had to make a bloody good go of it – or bugger off back to the bigger cities. Our mentality was – we want to be in the Bay, so let’s make this thing work.
It’s not an old/young thing – the youth will always want to do their OE – we all do it, we are conditioned from school age – the trick is to make us want to come back. And we all do.
All my friends do. I went to school in HB from form 2 to 7th form (showing my age here), went away – and it was wicked – but I always wanted to come back. And I did.
It’s not about keeping youth here – they want to experience what the UK/US/Aus/whereever can offer them, it’s about making sure that once they’re done – that they want to come back to the Bay. And generally they want to.
I do agree with Jodine that there may not be all the jobs that we all want – however, it’s up to us to find our niche.
There wasn’t much ‘need’ for what we do when we arrived – anyone with a computer can build a website – but that’s not what it’s about. We just carved our own way.
I don’t have all the answers but I don’t agree that HB can’t :
a) retain good people, or
b) attract them back
bc we do that all the time.
Cheers,
G
09:37, 23.09.2012
@Ryan.
Aj.. you’ve got quite a story there.
I’d agree with most.
I agree that the issue is the incumbent thinking. I do think that that sort of thinking is more prevalent in the older generation than the young though. Sure, there are exceptions.
And I do love your glass-half full thinking. Indeed when people want to stay with the status quo, but you see the opportunity you’ll be the only one that will pounce on that opportunity. Unfortunately, you’ll be swimming against the current.
HBYP is one yes, but no clear direction as far as I can see. “Just” networking needs to happen I agree, but something more needs to happen.
A Better Hawkes Bay is a step towards the right direction as they seem to have a goal and a plan on how to get there. But I do see that really their only goal is to Streamline Local Goverment By Unifying Councils. (Please correct me if that is wrong.)
Very unfortunate that your experience with the Chamber of Commerce hasn’t been a positive one. The Chamber is doing good work, but I also had the feeling that indeed the ‘incumbent thinking’ was lingering there.
As for the like-minded thinking gathering.. We normally get together on a Friday at the Station cafe every Friday. We might converge to your location at Raffles soon to combine forces and keep momentum going.
So I think that networking is great, but a concrete goal and plan would be better!
09:53, 23.09.2012
@George
Yes.. Definitely.. I am all for the OE. I encourage people to go. It opens their eyes and broadens their horizons. They come back more developed people.
Totally agree!
We do though have to make sure they want to come back and continue to feel stimulated and challenged.
You say: “But I just don’t agree you need massive resource to do your own thing – you just need to be smart about what you do with it.”
I don’t want to be blunt here and belittle your hard work to get to the position you’re in now, but the line of work you’re in, doesn’t require a huge outlay of resources to start with. As you said, “anyone with a computer can build a website”. Again, please don’t take this the wrong way.
I am just trying to say that different lines of work require different levels of resources.
But I do agree that there is the opportunity to carve out your niche if you have the stamina to keep at it. Ryan is saying that as well.
You say that essentially you don’t believe that we can’t keep our good people or get them back because you do so that all the time. You are meaning Mogul or HB in general?
I’d love to hear what method you apply to achieve this as it might help others.
09:11, 24.09.2012
Hey, great conversation and a real problem for Hawke’s Bay that doesn’t seem to have changed since I left at 18. Back now obviously but have faced the same challenges over the last 15 odd years.
What can we do? I’m hoping we can at least start some more entrepreneurial thinking with a Startup Weekend in Hawke’s Bay. This is a fully voluntary weekend requiring sponsorship and lots of volunteer help so feel free to get in touch if you want to be involved. Essentially its a low cost weekend where groups of people work on technical/e-commerce business ideas pitched by individuals attending. They then spend 54 hours flat out developing their idea from the pitch to as close to operational as they can get over the weekend culminating in a professional pitch to judges with some great prizes.
To give you an example TranscribeMe is a result of a Wellington startup weekend. Facilitated by very brilliant people and mentors that help the groups along the way – these are brilliant weekdn “ïncubators” . I’ve attended two (Palmy North and Tauranga) and people just come away buzzing. I’m working with Hal Jospephson and Michaela Vodanovich to make this happen here on the 8/9/10 March 2013.
If you want to know more check out http://www.startupweekend.org or email me on lyncheyne@xtra.co.nz (also know as Lyn Bevin from Hb Winegrowers).
Put your money and your time where your mouth is and help us get this pumping!
09:24, 24.09.2012
@Lyn
That is wonderful Lyn!
I see that here are the local NZ dates: http://www.startupweekend.co.nz
That is a great practical way of getting the buzz into HB and perhaps building pockets of small startups that would attract young people and build from there.
I am sending you an email now to see if I can help you set this up. And hope that many more who read this will do the same!
This would be crazy good and would tie in nicely with events like Pecha Kucha. https://www.facebook.com/pechakuchahb
09:24, 24.09.2012
I don’t think this is an issue at all. We should encourage them to leave the bay, explore, see the world, make things happen and then ensure that they bring their experience and possibly business back to this great region they grew up in. Having recently returned to the bay and bringing back a family and business, I have and always will be passionate about the bay and it’s potential. I totally agree with George (Mogul) and it is exactly the reason we’ve come back, to work hard and make it happen, not expect it to happen and not to keep chasing things elsewhere because it’s easier. There are some fantastic initiatives and vibrant opportunities happening here that will see the cycle of the bay change for the better and as long as the good people do great things and keep pushing for this region it will happen. It will happen because the pull of your roots is perhaps one of the strongest catalysts for change and vibrancy here. This place has changed so much and I am continually encouraged by the people I’ve met since moving back. So, I’d say this, I’ve been away but my heart has always been here and I’ve always wanted to get back here, we finally have and we are here to stay and make this bay great.
09:46, 24.09.2012
@George W
That is so great to hear George, that you see that the process of change has begun and you see things changing for the better from your perspective.
As I mentioned before, I agree wholeheartedly that people should leave the Bay and experience the world.
Good to hear that you think that people do come back. Something that has been resonated by the other commenters here as well.
So, from all the comments above, I think we probably all agree that the only way to do this is by hard work, chipping away at our niches and let the Bay transform as a result. Not a quick process, but we seem to agree that it is going somewhere.
But we also seem to say that if you are coming back to the Bay without an entrepreneurial streak in you, that you’ll find it hard to find something here to support a life style. Do we agree on that?
What do we do for the folk that come back and want to work for a company but don’t have the skills or tendency towards running a business (I think that prob most of us are a bit more sheepish than leaders?)
Or do we think that it’s just a matter of letting the entrepreneurs battle it out first and from there on jobs will be plenty?
Interestingly enough, the people that have commented above are all involved in digital tech and design/arts in some way.
13:51, 24.09.2012
Hi Paul, agree and I do see massive potential right here for those entrepreneurs to be able to create and grow great businesses here that can offer those the opportunities to come back if they haven’t the drive to create their own destiny. I know of quite a few people who have come back to work for companies here and love it and I also believe that the new knowledge wave of companies won’t be so location specific, i.e. you don’t have to be in Auckland, Sydney etc to have that stellar career. I think that the more people that are determined to be here will create great things and will attract that talent back.
11:39, 25.09.2012
Paul – no offence taken! We know better than most that there are no barriers to entry for web development, which is why have worked hard to position ourselves as strategic thinkers – not just digital ‘doers’.
And we def don’t think of ourselves as entrepreneurs – I think that word is overused.
Don’t misunderstand me – I think the Bay can keep some of our good people (the ones who don’t want to see the world/Aus whatever) and I think the Bay already gets some of them back (because most of us who have lived here as kids really want to come back) like George W
Interesting your design/digital comment – maybe it’s bc we can work remotely so easily? Not sure, maybe?
15:00, 25.09.2012
@George M
Yes, interesting to see that all that have contributed to this conversation indeed are design/digital oriented.
And yes, the working away from the hustle and bustle is indeed why you can exist here in the Bay. It is the area of work or industry that is most likely to survive in the Bay. It transcends the geological barrier of the Bay. It doesn’t bank on HB being a metropolis.
Also interesting is that most of you do think that is going the right way and not so much find that people are leaving. Perhaps it is a one sided view?
Interesting is why are there no people from other industries like for example the Heavy Industry commenting? Well, first and foremost because I think they do not read this forum.
If they did and they would comment, they would paint a different picture perhaps.
A picture possibly of finding it hard to find work.
And if they are “entrepreneurial” they’d complain that it takes a lot of resources to start something here and keep it going and hard to find the right people.
Am I right?
13:23, 27.09.2012
Seems that indeed as George W was saying that the scene is slowly changing.
The plans for Marine Parade look promising and going the right direction?
http://www.hawkesbaytoday.co.nz/news/our-new-marine-parade/1558934/
13:24, 27.09.2012
Paul – you might find fewer people responding to this than you expected as you have answered your own question several times over.
Whilst HB is a great place for people running small nimble businesses that can operate almost anywhere, making the place attractive to big volumes of employees would require a big population & loads of employing industries/services. Some bodies seem quite excited about a HB with 300,000 people in it for the business opportunities it would bring, but seem to forget that the first thing you lose is the reason we moved here in the first place when the beaches, rivers, roads etc have twice the no’ of people on them.
Plenty of us, this business included, have to run twice as hard to make half the dollars we’d make in a major centre, but the payoff is the space & freedom the place provides on your doorstep. In that respect, people can be attaracted here who share similar values of lifestyle over potential earnings, but for those who think dollars first, HB (or arguably NZ) isnt going to be a drawcard.
13:51, 27.09.2012
@ Steve
Hmmm.. Yes, you might be right..
But I wasn’t wondering why not more people are responding. I am gladly surprised by how many have actually taken a minute to respond.
I was just noting that it was a specific kind of people that are responding.
I do see your point that it is the limited amount of people here that makes it such a nice place to live. And that probably most people that live here don’t really want to attract more people to the region as that would alter the lifestyle and change it into just another big city..
But I refuse to believe that just population numbers govern the attraction level for young people to live somewhere. I refuse to believe that that is the only solution..
And I’d hate to attract more people that think dollar first.. I’d like to attract more people that think “do something worth doing” and make money along the way to recover cost and live being able to have choices. Quality over quantity.. I think that calling our local business magazine “The Profit” gives away how some people think about the main reason to start a business. (No offence to this initiative as it takes guts to start a new magazine..)
So I don’t think that we have answered the question quite yet..
The answer is not.. more people..
But since the people above have stated that they think that HB is changing for the better, albeit slowly, I am willing to adopt this realisation. I will instead channel my energy into coming up with things that I can do personally to make HB a little more interesting for young people..
20:46, 27.09.2012
Hi, Some really good discussion and glad to hear your comments George W and Paul D. There are some great initiatives going on in the Bay and a ground swell of collaboration to ‘make things’ better. It is great that ‘young’people leave and agree with George that the experience they bring back is invaluable. Even though not qualifying as ‘young’ I left the Bay for 6 years and returned 18 months ago and was excited to see and hear about all the fantastic businesses out there. We need to foster and encourage that excitement, that I believe we all feel on our return, and make sure it isn’t eaten away by the ‘nay sayers’. Love the idea that’s floating around of getting some hubs going and encouraging young people to come to (or stay in) the Bay to work on problems and solutions – a common theme at some software conferences – collaboration at its best
20:56, 27.09.2012
@Gill
Thanks for the comments Gill..
And welcome back!
07:39, 28.09.2012
A very interesting read so far.
I can comment from an industrial perspective after a stint with Enzafoods a few years ago. What I found interesting there was the difference in the type and I dare say the attitude of the workforce in our Nelson factories compared to Hawkes Bay. Nelson seemed to attract a very different demographic in that some highly qualified people were prepared to work for relatively low wages on a seasonal basis to support the lifestyle they wanted . However in Hawkes Bay it always seemed a struggle to fill positions. I never quite worked out why there was this difference but I thought I would share that observation.
I do have the privilege of being able to get a high level view of business in Hawkes Bay in my current role and in my opinion there are a number of factors which make it difficult to attract young talent back to HB.
The main one I believe is a lack of performance management by many businesses. Too many people in reasonably senior roles have become too accustomed to the lifestyle they enjoy in the bay and have perhaps forgotten that they had/have an opportunity to make a difference here. I see many people that have lost the drive and passion they once had and in my opinion should move on and let one of our best and brightest young people have a crack at it.
This will only happen if someone (maybe our HR profession should focus on coaching business leaders around this) points out some of the issues to these individuals and gets them to shape up or move on.
I am not talking about the majority here, just some , and they probably don’t even realise it.
Another area I think we could work on is marketing ourselves. Firstly that needs to come as an internal belief that HB could and should be a vibrant economic area. Somehow we need to take a good look at ourselves and focus on the positives. I’m sure there are many smarter people than me trying to achieve this, but it just seems that there are too many groups and maybe they need to get their heads together and work on a common goal. Perhaps that is too much to wish for!!!
My kids are now at the start of their Uni days. My dreams for them include them having successful carrers wherever they choose to go. I hope that if their choice is to be here in HB that the opportunities are available for them to be able to make that choice. That is why this whole subject does mean a lot to me and I would think many of the 40+ older folk that live and enjoy being in one of the best places on the planet.
08:08, 28.09.2012
Wayne – spot on ! We are focussing on attracting younger people in but failing to transition more senior people out of roles. We don’t want to continue the Bay to be known as ‘dead man’s shoes’ , which I must admit it felt like when I arrived 21 years ago. Senior workers have a lot to offer back to the business community and I agree, need to move aside for some fresh ideas and energy. Obviously not talking about all senior workers here before anyone gets upset
On the subject of marketing – how many adverts to do you see which sell the move to HB as a lifestyle choice etc… We are a vibrant economic area with heaps of great businesses so need to sell it as a great career choice with opportunities to learn different facets of business that people wouldn’t get in a big city.
08:16, 28.09.2012
@Wayne.
Thanks for that insight!
One could consider Hawkes Bay’s “sibling” so that insight of the differences between there and here is invaluable.
Lack of performance might indeed be one of those factors. When I think of performance though I can’t help but to think “Profit” and “Making money”. Whereas you seem to indicate “making a difference” as performance indicator which I think is the more valuable one, but very hard to measure.
Difficult subject as it comes with the notion that businesses are community held properties. But they are privately held entities that someone has worked hard for to build up and there is no reason why they are not allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labour.
So I think the only solution is to go out and venture on our own if things are getting to slow for us.
The subject of marketing is a bit of a pickle as it has been tried many times over. And as you say, some groups are trying to achieve the proper marketing tactic as we speak.
Not sure if we’d ever come to full agreement on this, to a common goal. Perhaps we should let evolution struggle it out? May the best marketing tactic survive? Or perhaps multiple tactics fit the bill as there are many groups with different motives and beliefs. Maybe there is enough room to do that and would speed things up?
The fibre project that you’re working on will aid in serving as a communication backbone throughout the Hawkes Bay and will hopefully give us an advantage over other regions. That’s an excellent step in the right direction.
We do hope that indeed our children will return to the Bay and be challenged and find their passion. That would be a good ideal to work towards.
08:26, 28.09.2012
@Gill
Indeed.
Sell the Hawkes Bay more as an opportunity to be challenged and grow..
It is a bit of a chicken and the egg story though.. We can sell that picture, but can we deliver on it?
Business Hawkes Bay are doing their fair bit though: http://www.businesshawkesbay.co.nz
15:58, 09.10.2012
Hey I’m one of the presenters at Pecha Kucha tomorrow night at The Cabana in Napier. I’m talking about attending Startup weekends. Come and support me if you can! (I haven’t done anything like this for ever!) 5:30pm onwards, $10 entry and I won’t be the only one speaking.
21:20, 09.10.2012
Great stuff Lyn!
Entry I think is only $5! (https://www.facebook.com/pechakuchahb)
I will be there to hear your talk!
22:09, 09.10.2012
Lyn I’ll post the Pecha Kucha details on our FB page (www.facebook.com/HerHB) and Twitter like I did for the last ones. Good luck with your presentation!
20:42, 22.10.2012
Well..
Reading the comments on the Post here I decided that just writing about it wouldn’t cut the mustard. I would have to come up with a solution that at least changes the small world around myself a little bit.
Read more here: http://www.fruitbowl.co.nz/uncategorized/crowd-funding-campaign-for-the-makeplace/